Monday, February 18, 2008
Church Authority?
A friend of mine was overly wrought one night when pondering the status of his church. He had been in a long discussion with a Catholic priest who was telling him protestant churches have no real authority and therefore are not really to be considered the Church. Of course my interest was piqued with such a statement made and I questioned my friend further of why this was bothering him.
The Catholic church has long been identified as an institution that relies heavily on tradition. The handing down of these traditions as well as the strict use and practice of these is what keep the Church the church. Of most important is the rite, or process by which church leaders are chosen/ordained/commissioned. The Catholic church holds to the tradition that their authority goes as far back as Peter; and the apostolic authority has been literally handed down through the generations. Their authority is grounded deep within historical roots and holds an amazing impact on how one responds to church authority.
I asked my friend what he means by authority of the church. He simply said the right or ability to tell me what I should do and how I should live my life. Which to me is the biggest amount of authority I guess you could give to anyone or institution.
So the question stands; how are protestant people go about establishing authority within their gatherings? In many situations around the world, a college or even seminary degree is not even within the possibility of the church leader/congregation. But does a degree from a Bible institute even give the right to have church authority? What measure must we compare to in deciding if one can carry the authority of a Bible teacher? Are we as protestants handcuffed by doctrines such as sola scirptora? or can we also trust in tradition?
I have many thoughts on this but would like to hear to what degree you give Bible teachers authority, and how you decide if someone can tell you how to live your life.
Comments:
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I have thought about this a long time and I have had a hard time with it. I at first felt the whole "your-not-the-boss-of-me attitude" I don't want anyone to tell me how to live. Nothing like a little sin-nature to get in the way.
But when I thought about it, I thought if I was going to let someone tell me what to do then their life better reflect what they are saying. For example if my pastor were to tell us to memorize scripture but he was not doing it himself- than I am not going to do it. But if he were to modle it for us by memorizing a passage with us, one verse each sunday I would be ready to follow his lead.
These are my first thoughts anyways.
Fawnda
But when I thought about it, I thought if I was going to let someone tell me what to do then their life better reflect what they are saying. For example if my pastor were to tell us to memorize scripture but he was not doing it himself- than I am not going to do it. But if he were to modle it for us by memorizing a passage with us, one verse each sunday I would be ready to follow his lead.
These are my first thoughts anyways.
Fawnda
Hey its good to get some response. Well I think I follow your same lines of thinking, but I might take it a step further than that even. In order for me to allow someone to have "authority" over me, to tell me what to do; take a whole lot of trust. It doesn't take a form of traditiong, or some formal ceremony of laying on of hands, passing down apostolic authority. Not even the most learned and respected Bible teacher who went to the greatest Bible school is given the right of authority these days; at least in my expereince.
But what I believe builds true authority is true community. It's when I work and live along side someone and know them. I understand them and love them. I know who they are what makes them tick, and most importantly I know they know me. I know they love me and are looking out for what is best for me. In this case, it certainly doesn't take a acadamian to pound a pulpit and alter my lifestyle, but rather the biggest dimwit in the builiding could have a huge impact on my life.
I have much more to say abou this because I believe we give authority to people all the time without realizing it...
But what I believe builds true authority is true community. It's when I work and live along side someone and know them. I understand them and love them. I know who they are what makes them tick, and most importantly I know they know me. I know they love me and are looking out for what is best for me. In this case, it certainly doesn't take a acadamian to pound a pulpit and alter my lifestyle, but rather the biggest dimwit in the builiding could have a huge impact on my life.
I have much more to say abou this because I believe we give authority to people all the time without realizing it...
I agree with the "know you" part of giving authority. I need to know that some one really is looking out for my best interest if I am going to follow their directions.
I also think that many time people (including me) give up authority to people and things with little thought. The first thing that comes to mind is TV. How many times am I influenced to buy or do something that I would have never thought of before because I see it on TV... too many. This is a tactic the devil uses to bring us away from the one whose authority we should be following (God the Father!)
Fawnda
I also think that many time people (including me) give up authority to people and things with little thought. The first thing that comes to mind is TV. How many times am I influenced to buy or do something that I would have never thought of before because I see it on TV... too many. This is a tactic the devil uses to bring us away from the one whose authority we should be following (God the Father!)
Fawnda
In recent years I have not given much authority to Bible scholars. It's not that I don't think they're worth listening to. I do value their knowledge of the Bible. However, when they start telling us what we "should do" with that information, I step back a bit. I understand that they are now giving their interpretation of the Bible as it applies to their lives or their perspective of the world. I think their interpretations may or may not apply to me. I'd rather take the Biblical facts/stories/information, and pray about it and see where God leads me.
When it comes to getting a second opinion for a specific situation, I guess it would be ideal to have both a close friend who knows the Bible, and is honest enough to risk saying something I may not like, and an authority who has more experience in whatever issue I'm coming to them with.
When it comes to getting a second opinion for a specific situation, I guess it would be ideal to have both a close friend who knows the Bible, and is honest enough to risk saying something I may not like, and an authority who has more experience in whatever issue I'm coming to them with.
Theresa! Welcome back! I think your perspective is widely held one, or at least a fast growing one. And fortunately or unfortunately it seems to completely undermine the system of the way we do church. If at least 50% of our attention goes to some "schalar" flapping his yap about something that no one will ever care about...why in heaven do we do it!?!
Yo Justin, you are wrong in couple things. The priest wasn't talking about generally about protestant churches, but about our little church Elim. I described the situation to him (anyone can preach, the authority is divided between people who are voted and such) His question to us was where do we get the authority to "ordinate" people into for instance the elder. Where is the hierarchy that was kept even in younger church that we read in the Bible. Paul always went and ordinated the servants in a particular city you know. But us? It's just a bunch of people who decide -> this one will be a preacher, this one will be elder. What makes us church?
Another thing is that I don't think the church authority is that someone can tell you what to do and how to live my life. I think that catholic church is much less invasive into peoples lives then for instance Elim :) The church authority is God given, it's written in the Bible that what Peter accepts on the Earth will be accepted in the Heaven right? So here comes the authority of catholic church to have all the rites and traditions.
So my question to you and other people here is "What makes a church a church?" and "Can you just have a bunch of people who will vote their leaders and start calling themselves a church?" "How do you decide that the teaching of this particular 'organization' is right?" And you know, altogether, I wonder about the authority...
Another thing is that I don't think the church authority is that someone can tell you what to do and how to live my life. I think that catholic church is much less invasive into peoples lives then for instance Elim :) The church authority is God given, it's written in the Bible that what Peter accepts on the Earth will be accepted in the Heaven right? So here comes the authority of catholic church to have all the rites and traditions.
So my question to you and other people here is "What makes a church a church?" and "Can you just have a bunch of people who will vote their leaders and start calling themselves a church?" "How do you decide that the teaching of this particular 'organization' is right?" And you know, altogether, I wonder about the authority...
Ok Vitek I am sorry I definitely simplified our conversations and I may misunderstood you too.
But I think the situation at Elim is very similar to many protestant churches especially those deemed as "non-denominational" The preachers/teacher/elders are all picked by influence of democracy...whoever gets the most votes wins! In some case, for example Sunday school teacher, the position is given to anyone who volunteers!
Now your question of what makes a church a church, is a very deep question indeed! Now I think I swing a bit liberally on this issue because frankly I am fed up with institutionalized church. And if you have never lived on a Christian College campus you may never understand what i am talking about...
But anyway a church to me is simply a gathering of people. "When two or three are gathered...there I am in their midst." The greek word for church was simply borrowed from the common speech of the day literally meaning a gathering.
The church hierarchy you speak of in the bible is there, but I have to say it seemed to be an after thought to the people. You see the early church believed so deeply in the return of Jesus that they really didn't set up an institution. Church leaders like Stephen were chosen based upon the need of the time (see acts 6). Paul's letters containing information about picking elders and pastors don't occur until near the end of his life.
We have passages from Jesus making peter the rock, but there is some debate whether Peter is the rock or his proclamation of Jesus being the Christ is the Rock (See Mat.16:16-18).
To sum up I guess what I am saying is that there really is no clear picture of what church structure should be, and usually when we try to structure the church it falls to pieces.
To me a church needs to harbor true community inside and out. A community that is in harmony with itself as well as the what is around it. We must never forget that the church is not a building, the early churches didn't have buildings, but it is a gathering.
The question of authority for me is answered in Matt. 28:18
chew on that for a while let me know what you think.
But I think the situation at Elim is very similar to many protestant churches especially those deemed as "non-denominational" The preachers/teacher/elders are all picked by influence of democracy...whoever gets the most votes wins! In some case, for example Sunday school teacher, the position is given to anyone who volunteers!
Now your question of what makes a church a church, is a very deep question indeed! Now I think I swing a bit liberally on this issue because frankly I am fed up with institutionalized church. And if you have never lived on a Christian College campus you may never understand what i am talking about...
But anyway a church to me is simply a gathering of people. "When two or three are gathered...there I am in their midst." The greek word for church was simply borrowed from the common speech of the day literally meaning a gathering.
The church hierarchy you speak of in the bible is there, but I have to say it seemed to be an after thought to the people. You see the early church believed so deeply in the return of Jesus that they really didn't set up an institution. Church leaders like Stephen were chosen based upon the need of the time (see acts 6). Paul's letters containing information about picking elders and pastors don't occur until near the end of his life.
We have passages from Jesus making peter the rock, but there is some debate whether Peter is the rock or his proclamation of Jesus being the Christ is the Rock (See Mat.16:16-18).
To sum up I guess what I am saying is that there really is no clear picture of what church structure should be, and usually when we try to structure the church it falls to pieces.
To me a church needs to harbor true community inside and out. A community that is in harmony with itself as well as the what is around it. We must never forget that the church is not a building, the early churches didn't have buildings, but it is a gathering.
The question of authority for me is answered in Matt. 28:18
chew on that for a while let me know what you think.
Hey Velmer, I'm just checking in, wondering if we're gonna be able to read some more of your "ponderings" any time soon. No pressure! Or perhaps you joined a competetor's site (like I did) and now have no time for this Blog Spot.
I haven't been here in a long time, but I have a different idea. What's great about protestant churches is that there need be no authority (at least no conclusive authority). The only authorities we have are the capacities and resources God has given us. We have the Bible, reason (of course), social sentiments, and the Spirit of God. There are other resources and because of the se things God has given us, we can make collective decisions. The only real problem comes when we limit our exposure to some of these resources or neglect them in our decision-making. We can still rely on individuals, but in nothing near the way Catholics do. People earn credibility by their utilization of the resources we have. To the extent they are credible, we can rely on them. Beyond that, screw authority!
By the way, Matthew 28:18 is an interesting option, but you would have to explain how that works in the human community. Then maybe I'll buy it.
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By the way, Matthew 28:18 is an interesting option, but you would have to explain how that works in the human community. Then maybe I'll buy it.
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